Council To Consider Extending Sewer And Water Service
At its meeting Wednesday evening, Village Council will introduce three ordinances that would provide sewers to the Owens Corning property and sewer and water service to the new Township maintenance garage. The Owens property is the subject of a $5 M grant application by the Township for state funds that would provide $1 M for the construction of a sewer line from the south serviced by the Southwest Licking Community Water and Sewer District.
Both properties are located along the path of Village sewer and water lines servicing Kendal.
Council's proposed Ordinance No. 11-08 states that "Council is committed to not providing utility services outside the Village limits to stimulate or encourage the development of single-family housing that could bring additional school-age children to the..." school district. (Emphasis added.)
As a condition of providing sewer service to the Owens property, the resolution goes on to restrict the type of development: "...so long as the property to be served is intended to be, and when developed is used exclusively for an office, technical, and research-related business park." The resolution further states, "The sanitary sewer services shall not be used for any other purpose, such as for residential or commercial purposes, without the specific approval of the Village Council as authorized by an amendment to this ordinance."
Click here to view the complete resolution providing sewers to the Owens property.
In a memo to Council, Village staff suggested that "...Council approve a companion resolution requesting that the Township Trustees amend the grant application to clearly indicate that the sanitary sewer services for the proposed Granville Science and Technology Complex would be provided by the Village of Granville."
Passage of this ordinance and agreement by Owens Corning and the Township trustees would resolve the conflict over the possible introduction of sewers to the Owens property by Southwest Licking Community Water and Sewer District. Many fear that if Southwest Licking extends its toehold into the township it would lead to uncontrollable residential and "big box" commercial development placing a severe strain on the Granville school system.
It remains to be seen if both Owens and the trustees will agree to the conditions imposed by the Village.
The two other ordinances to be introduced at Wednesday's meeting would provide sewer and water to the new Township maintenance facility. These ordinances also contain a prohibition against using the utilities "...for any other purpose such as for residential or commercial development."
Click here to view the resolution providing sewer service to the new Township garage. Click here to view the resolution providing water service to the new Township garage.
Council will likely schedule all three ordinances for a public hearing and action at its next regularly scheduled meeting on Wednesday, August 6.
Click here to view the complete agenda for the Village Council meeting on Wednesday.
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See previous stories about the Township - Owens Corning grant:
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See previous stories about the new Township garage:
Hardy har har
In the "Let's begin again" thread http://granvillepress.com/node/204 buknut said "You miss the point. Some people work effectively while others tilt at windmills. The well intentioned but misguided efforts involved in this thread are the latter."
Poor buknut. His precious SWL isn't going to get the sewer contract and his dreams of turning Granville into another Pataskala have hit a bump in the road. Perhaps he was involved in some backdoor meetings that went for naught. I wonder how much he loses when SWL gets shut out?
Curious but disingenuious
Data based decision making is nearly impossible with the introduction of bias in the data or the analysis.
Some deeply embedded bias is reflected in the processes used in Granville. For instance, if Granville provides it, by definition it must be better. Granville is better than Pataskala. Granville water is better than SWL water. No data, no analysis, just bias. (Arrogant bias at that.) Pataskala is a wonderful place. Very different from Granville, but special in many ways nonetheless.
Granville is a wonderful place to live and raise a family. Not so good for employment opportunities - poor for working conditions, very little economic opportunity or economic diversity within Granville.
Again, Christopher misses the point. Granville will continue to develop as EFFECTIVE leaders work together. Nearly all meetings will be behind the scenes and should remain so. Since Christopher referenced the "Lets begin again" thread, lets take it to the nosey do gooder stage.
Chris and Donna are having a marital disagreement. Happens in all marriages. As part of the problem solving process, nosey do gooders offer to come over and help the happy couple talk things out. Later, the do-gooders blog details of the discussions and points of contention for the community to assist the couple in resolving their differences. Nosey do-gooders take the position that since marital disagreements and divorce are bad for the community and costly to the taxpayers, they have a stake in the marital success for the Hawkins family.
While the public process to "Lets begin again" may work to build a more productive relationship for the Hawkins I'll advocate that the private process conducted in the living room on Raccoon Valley Road is more likely to be effective. Simply put, the public has no meaningful stake in the Hawkins lives.
Let the professional trustees go about their work. If you want to have an impact, discuss matters privately and refrain from blogging. You will be ignored by the decision makers otherwise.
Your arrogance for all things Granville is disappointing. I love Granville, but I lack the perspective that it is a pristine holy place. It is just another nice place to live. No better (but different) than Pataskala.
The new business opportunities in today's interconnected world
"Not so good for employment opportunities - poor for working conditions, very little economic opportunity or economic diversity within Granville."
Actually Granville has great working conditions and much economic opportunity. However, the success and growth is in non-traditional businesses such as consulting firms and similar businesses. They tend to have relatively high income and little demand for infrastructure provided by local government. What those businesses do demand is exactly what Granville has: an unusually visually attractive community with slow enough growth to still have a community feel, a good school system and reasonable access to a decent airport.
The reason such businesses are possible today while they were not possible 25 years ago is the advent of the internet. Much work can be performed from any location. Granville excels in this environment because Granville is a very desirable place to live. These are not your father's businesses. Quality of life is what drives placement of these new generation businesses.
You are right though that different places excel at different things. No one place can successfully be all things to all people. Some of the very things that make Pataskala special would drive away the very consulting and similar businesses that now give Granville its relatively high income and standard of living.
"I love Granville, but I lack the perspective that it is a pristine holy place. It is just another nice place to live. No better (but different) than Pataskala."
If you believe Granville is a no better place to live than Pataskala, then perhaps what is good about Granville is not important to you. Given the significantly higher prices charged for properties in Granville relative to properties in Pataskala, those good elements Granville possesses are very important to some people. That is what is great about this world; not every community has to be like every other community. And, not every community has to meet every need. Some communities focus on lots of relatively low paying jobs; others focus on relatively few high paying jobs. Some communities want lots of retail (Heath comes to mind); others would prefer to avoid the traffic and related infrastructure costs.
If you want a low paying job and want to live close to your work, there are fewer opportunities in Granville than in Heath. If you want lots of fast food close to your home, Granville is not a good choice. If you don't want to live in a college town, then Granville should not be tops on your list. If you want the intensity of a real city, then central Ohio is not for you; Manhattan would be more to your liking. No community can be nor should attempt to be all things to all people. Communities, like people, are best when they focus on what they do well.
Amazingly well said, ot
Thank you for this well-thought and well-argued post. It helps explain Granville's economic success.
Our community's long- and short-term prosperity is nearly unmatched in Ohio. For generations, we have emphasized beauty, smart planning, good schools, etc. It has paid huge economic dividends. The argument that Granville has been damaged by its planning efforts seems at odds with property values, household income and other measures. But perhaps I'm too data-driven.
Amen.
I agree.
What part was disingenous?
Data based decision making is nearly impossible with the introduction of bias in the data or the analysis. Agreed
Some deeply embedded bias is reflected in the processes used in Granville. Agreed. Look around. It has worked pretty well thus far.
For instance, if Granville provides it, by definition it must be better. No one is saying this
Granville is better than Pataskala. For me this is true. If you don’t think so, why not move to Pataskala.
Granville water is better than SWL water. I don’t know. No data either way.
No data, no analysis, just bias. (Arrogant bias at that.) Do you deny that having Granville supply water to the proposed OCPD is better for Granville than having SWL?
Pataskala is a wonderful place. Very different from Granville, but special in many ways nonetheless. Very likely true. Don’t try the ole’ trick of putting words in my mouth. I never said Pataskala wasn’t a wonderful place. I said Granville was better.
Granville is a wonderful place to live and raise a family. Agreed
Not so good for employment opportunities Agreed- poor for working conditions, examples? very little economic opportunity or economic diversity within Granville. Agreed
Again, Christopher misses the point. Granville will continue to develop as EFFECTIVE leaders work together. Nearly all meetings will be behind the scenes and should remain so. At least you are clear.
Since Christopher referenced the "Lets begin again" thread, lets take it to the nosey do gooder stage. Chris and Donna are having a marital disagreement. Happens in all marriages. As part of the problem solving process, nosey do gooders offer to come over and help the happy couple talk things out. Later, the do-gooders blog details of the discussions and points of contention for the community to assist the couple in resolving their differences. Nosey do-gooders take the position that since marital disagreements and divorce are bad for the community and costly to the taxpayers, they have a stake in the marital success for the Hawkins family.
While the public process to "Lets begin again" may work to build a more productive relationship for the Hawkins I'll advocate that the private process conducted in the living room on Raccoon Valley Road is more likely to be effective. Simply put, the public has no meaningful stake in the Hawkins lives. True. But, but the Granville public has a huge stake in who supplies sewer to the proposed development. When did the trustees / village / OC begin meaningful discussions regarding who supplies sewer? Was it before the GP made the deal public? I'm not going to waste the trustees time filing public records requests now that the issue is all but settled.
Let the professional trustees go about their work. If you want to have an impact, discuss matters privately and refrain from blogging. You will be ignored by the decision makers otherwise. This is clearly the crux of the matter. I believe that in most cases, having broader community involvement leads to better decisions. Today's decision makers may be sitting on the sidelines after the next election,.
Your arrogance for all things Granville is disappointing. Granville isn't perfect, but it is mighty fine.
I love Granville, but I lack the perspective that it is a pristine holy place. It is just another nice place to live. No better (but different) than Pataskala. We disagree.
Some things haven't changed
For the 40+ years that I have lived here, one thing has remained constant - the next person who moves to Granville will want themselves to be the last person allowed to move in. Shut the gate behind them. If Granville citizens would have been allowed to have their way 30 years ago, newcomers like Christopher Hawkins wouldn't be allowed to build homes on Raccoon Valley Road.
At least we have debunked the myth that Christopher is an unbiased data based decision maker. He is just continuing the fine tradition that makes Granville so "special" - unbridled arrogance.
Shut the gate
I don't apologize for wanting to shut the gate now that I'm here. Were some people disappointed that the 15 acres we currently own now has a house on it? Absolutely. If I were them, would I have felt the same way? Absolutely. I didn't put the land up for sale; a developer did. If I hadn't bought it someone else would have. That is why I'm a proponent of the open space levys, the Licking county land trust, conversation easments, etc.
You are welcome to come out and visit our place. It used to be farmland. I'll show the couple of thousand trees that my wife and I planted 15 years ago. The mixture of maple, oak, sweetgum, white pine, norway spuce, green ash, white ash, hawthorn, paw paw, persimmon, elder and walnut are quite lovely. You are also welcome to take a dip in the 0.4 acre pond that we had put in. The old bur oak that is 6ft in diameter is safe from the saw and available for you to behold. Yep, we took it out of farmland. At least we didn't try to put in a drive-through or strip mall.
I note you claim to have shown something to be true that you haven't shown to be true. "At least we have debunked..." Nice try, but most of the people on this forum are too bright to fall for this simple trick.
Congratulations - Christopher is nearly a native
Despite Christopher Hawkins relative newcomer status to the village, he has quickly adopted the Granville mindset - "close the gate behind me." I wonder if the Hawkins family were inheriently selfish "I've got mine, now you can't have it" kind of people before they moved to Granville or if the village mindset turned otherwise nice people into the self centered. Either way, little has changed. Forty years from now, when Granville is twice the size with two high schools and common border with Pataskala, the next person to move in will want to be the last.
What limits on residential development?
buknut: Do you desire all undeveloped land to be developed? You seem to have the all growth is good mentality. Please explain what you would like to see Granville become. Not what you predict, what you desire.
An effort to respond
Christopher, your question and title are somewhat ambiguous and poorly worded, but I'll make an attempt to answer your questions and share my thoughts. The ideal future would be to maintain the existing residential stock and downtown business district intact. Currently undeveloped land would be placed into productive sustainable agricultural use or maintained as habitat for native species. All lands would be managed as productive farms or habitat development rather than allowed to be neglected by their landowners. To get a sense of what the area surrounding Granville could become think of Malabar and Louis Bromfield or Fearrington North Carolina.
For this vision to occur would require benevolent landowner stewardship. I am hopeful for the vision.
I also defend private property rights ahead of my personal vision. If a private landowner seeks to develop their property to their highest and best economic use that conflicts with my vision, then I will defend their right to build homes ahead of my love and vision for a more pastoral setting. The landowner gets to make the rules within the framework of reasonable zoning. I would have preferred that Granville purchase the Kraner property because I believe that Granville is more likely to keep the property in a manner consistent with my vision. If my resouces were greater, I would have purchased the property and likely used it for habitat (and perhaps a little hunting and trapping.)
Since Mr Kraner owns the property, he is free to choose to add another 500 children to the district and develop the property within his desires subject to the reasonable zoning requirements.
To bring the point a little closer to home, I happen to believe that the placement of many of the trees that you planted on the front of your property near Raccoon Valley road is just plain goofy. I sincerely believe that it detracts from the overall asthetic appeal of the drive towards Alexandria and is largely out of character with neighboring properties. The peace sign over the barn is a little goofy too. However I will be the first to defend YOUR right to plant trees and hang signs on your property as you alone see fit. My tastes are not material to your enjoyment of the property. Simiarly, if a landowner seeks to develop their property in a manner inconsistent with my tastes, I will defend their right to do so.
Hence, Granville schools will double and we should learn to deal with additional residential development.
Trees down front
"To bring the point a little closer to home, I happen to believe that the placement of many of the trees that you planted on the front of your property near Raccoon Valley road is just plain goofy."
The trees are for selling to landscapers. This will be the third crop we've had since we've been here. Perhaps you forgot we are zoned agricultural. The soil down front is excellent, and terrain is flat and the trees advertise themselves.
I hate to interrupt
I hate to interrupt this love fest the two of you are having, but it is getting a bit tedious.
Frankly, when someone starts using the word "goofy" in a conversation, I tend to walk away.
Study dueling more carefully
The last person of note actually harmed in a duel was Alexander Hamilton. The purpose of the duel was merely to satisfy the honor of parties with soiled reputations. The parties to the duel are supposed to miss one another. Given Christopher's Quaker pathology, he would most likely fail to load his weapon. This could go on forever. Maybe frisbee golf at midnight near a ravine? I appreciate the sentiment gmab.
Wow, pathology huh?
I'm afraid I am left speechless.
Speaking of unbridled arrogance...
Issues aside, does your communication style work well for you with relationships and agendas? I assume you have a mustache to twirl, but shouldn't you be tying a damsel to railroad tracks somewhere? Please consider aggressiveness training as a second career. Sheesh!!
Laughter and joy - Put my office right beside Ann Coulters
I laugh and cry often with a large circle of friends. I try not to spend too much time with the arrogant snobs so easy to find in Granville. My communication style must work at some level since my wife and I attract influential and fun loving area leaders as our dinner and social companions every week. Some people find real honesty without pretense simply refreshing. Maybe I could teach communications at Denison. Put my office right beside Ann Coulter's.
Interesting...
"my wife and I attract influential and fun loving area leaders as our dinner and social companions every week"
You have no idea how much saying this tells.
the precious Granville schools
In ten years there will be a minimum of 500 additional single family homes sending their children to the Granville schools. With the completion of SR 161, maybe 1500 new homes. Get over it.
500 new homes? Maybe 1500? No way.
The factors below suggest many fewer homes than 500 homes are likely to be built in the Granville school system in the next ten years.
• Higher than normal building rates in the previous decade
• Economy in the tank for the foreseeable future
• Granville's high property taxes
• Gas at $4/gallon and likely to go higher.
What are the data and logic you use to come to your conclusion?
My guess is you are simply trolling again.
Logic and data vs hysteria and doom
Licking County population increase since 2002 is in excess of 7%, with central Ohio the only major growing metro area in Ohio.
Port Columbus airline traffic is up 14.6%
New projected jobs in northeast Columbus alone in the next 5 years = 24,000
High and growing birth rates in both Licking County and Central Ohio
Central Ohio ranks 3rd nationally in non-US born population growth since 2000
Lowest old age dependency quotient in Ohio, amongst the lowest in the country (translation - we have lots of young people, fewer retirees to support. Young people make babies who attend Granville schools).
Residential building permits grew at a SLOWER rate than the population gain in central Ohio.
Maybe Owens Corning will stay in the tank for the foreseeable future, but central Ohio will lead the way in new job growth.
Average commute time to work for a central Ohio family - 24 minutes. Put 24,000 new jobs in northeast Columbus and draw a circle of 24 minutes commuter time once SR 161 is completed and you find the Granville schools are within the circle.
Do you have any data as opposed to hysteria over gas at $4/gallon? Current pricing model for major oil companies would only support a sustainable level for oil prices at $75/barrel.
We'll see you at Granville high school with 500 more kids driving SUV's before 2018. See you there.
Why make the situation worse?
To the extent you are accurate, you have pointed out a good number of reasons to not have something like Southwest Licking/Pataskala water and sewer in Granville Township.
Whether you are correct or not is irrelevant. The real question is why would we ever want to make the situation worse?
I do, however, get a kick out of the SUV bait you laid out there. Not as good as the "do-gooder" labeling, but not bad either.
Primary references for your statistics?
Love to see them.
Primary Reference
US Census Bureau
"Get over it" comment
Are you quoting Lew Mollica or Dick Cheney?
Lew Mollica and Dick Cheney
Two great minds. Love 'em both.
Great minds do not necessarily make great leaders
Both are very bright men. However, both have in the long run done more to damage their causes than help them.
Cheney's arrogance has helped build opposition to the war.
Mollica's arrogance on the school board led to voter repudiation of his management through defeat of multiple levies. His leadership at Licking Memorial Hospital led to a very destructive period from which the hospital is still trying to recover.
Lew Mollica
That must be why Licking Memorial Hospital honored Lew with their highest honor - The Lifetime Achievement Award last year.
Some problems become pretty embedded
Yep, unfortunately the hospital board, just as with the school board, still has a lot of members with allegiance to Mollica. When you have organizations dominated by that sort of personality it takes a long time to fix. That is one element of why an arrogant personality is so insidious.
But, with a bit of luck it will happen. We just need to give them time.
For the community it would be good for the hospital to recover. So many now have instructed their family to have them taken to Mount Carmel or elsewhere in Columbus just to avoid the problems at LMH. I suspect a number of the problems have already been resolved, but the arrogance so alienated many members of the general public that were in the know that it will take some time for the reputation to recover and match actual progress made. (By the way, a problem with a hospital is particularly persistent. The abandonment by a number of potential patients means the hospital surgical teams have relatively infrequent practice on given procedures. That in turn makes them less capable than a busier institution. This can and does become a vicious circle where there is a relatively educated consumer base. This is what is sad. Even if Mollica's policy perspectives were right on target, the implementation itself through arrogance became very damaging.)
For another example of an arrogance engendered reputation problem, look at how, despite major progress on the ground in what is a war critical to the future of the US and the world in general, the majority of the American public remains against the war in Iraq. (I suspect I am losing Christopher Hawkins on this analogy [reasonable minds can differ], but it applies nonetheless.)
Paul- you prove my point
Well intentioned bright people who suffer the arrogance of their perspective are generally INEFFECTIVE. Hence the Hawkins arrogance renders his efforts ineffective, whilst his viewpoint is valid.
Arrogant Quakers
Perhaps Buknut and the community leaders that frequent his dinner table can privately decide what to do about such citizen arrogance.
As for Chris, I suggest that at silent meeting Sunday morning that he hold buknut in the light.
Actually...
The term "arrogant quaker" is well established in Quaker practice and commentary dating back the 1600's. Start at www.quaker.org. It is not a bad thing, but it is what it is. Arrogance has been a quaker criticism (and in some cases practice for centuries.)
I'll pray for Christopher and all the community today, tomorrow and again on Sunday.
I get it!
One as consistently provocative, abrasive, aggressive, condescending, and obnoxious in tone as Buknut has to be putting us on, unless Phineas T. Bluster or Bill O'Reilly are in town. Are we being "punked"?
If unwillingness to bow down
If unwillingness to bow down to developers and people with lots of money is arrogant, I plead guilty.
I think you are confusing arrogance with confidence. Do I think I’m right about these issues? Absolutely. I am confident my judgment is sound. Do I “know” I’m right. No. That would be arrogant.
I seek the truth. That is why I ask lots of very specific questions. One characteristic of an arrogant person is the unwillingness to thoughtfully consider the views of others. I have asked you to help me see your perspective. Your responses have seemed dismissive and arrogant.
I very much value those times when I’ve been shown to be in error. Why? Because now I’m able to
• Solve an issue
• Give light a solution already known
• Give recognition to someone with better knowledge/logic better than mine.
Peace...
Say again who is dismissive and arrogant?
Submitted by Christopher_Hawkins on Sun, 07/13/2008 - 16:58.
Poor buknut. His precious SWL isn't going to get the sewer contract and his dreams of turning Granville into another Pataskala have hit a bump in the road. Perhaps he was involved in some backdoor meetings that went for naught. I wonder how much he loses when SWL gets shut out?
Say again, who is dismissive and arrogant?
Christopher Hawkins claims: "I am passionate about...data based decision making.."
Christopher Hawkins agrees: "data based decision making is nearly impossible with the introduction of bias in the data or analysis..."
Christopher Hawkins agrees: "Some deeply embedded bias is reflected in the processes used in Granville...it has worked pretty well thus far.
My response (again):
For the 40+ years that I have lived here, one thing has remained constant - the next person who moves to Granville will want themselves to be the last person allowed to move in. Shut the gate behind them. If Granville citizens would have been allowed to have their way 30 years ago, newcomers like Christopher Hawkins wouldn't be allowed to build homes on Raccoon Valley Road.
At least we have debunked the myth that Christopher is an unbiased data based decision maker. He is just continuing the fine tradition that makes Granville so "special" - unbridled arrogance.
I have simply provided the evidence to suggest that Christopher remains disingenuious. He has little regard for seeking the truth or data based decision making unless it suits his biased agenda.
I happen to love Granville and have sacrified many hours and invested my capital to see it continue to prosper. Few people in the area would recognize me walking down Broadway. I work effectively and frequently behind the scenes to continue to build a great community.
Christopher finds me dismissive and arrogant. The people who actually run Granville find me EFFECTIVE. (I suspect they find Christopher bothersome at best, ineffective for certain and unelected the last time I looked at the school board election results.)
Sarcasm
Regarding my sarcasm toward you, I am unapologetic.
Your first post in the Granville Press was titled “Nosey do gooders.” It went on to say.
“Chris Hawkins and do-gooders of his ilk should stay on the sidelines and let people who actually have capital at risk dictate the terms of the deal.” ”Stay home and fight with your wife. You have a dog in that fight.” This was your first post. At least you are honest when you say the public should sit on the sidelines and let people with big money make the decisions. Your attitude is consistent.
“Taxpayer dollars are necessary, but do not compare with the risk and rights of those who put their own money at risk.” So you believe the economic interest of a few people grants them the right to make decisions for an entire community? And you call me arrogant
Your Euclid case explanation gets blown away by ot.
Yesman follows up with an explanation that business owners rely upon taxpayer dollars for intrastructure and thus should have a say.
I ask a series of sincere questions on Sun, 07/06/2008 - 21:26. and you respond with “Sewers attract developers. Nosey do-gooders chase away developers. Leave this project to the professionals and stay home.
Then you appear to support changing the flood plain map to enable development. Irresponsible. Building in flood plains is never a good idea. What happens next is someone downstream gets flooded and/or those on the floodplain are begging for a government bailout.
Then you follow up with “My Meeting with the Tooth Fairy.” Oh yea, that is helpful.
Moving to the “Council to consider extending..”
You say 500 to 1500 homes will be built in the district in the next 10 years. Your post ends with “Get over it.” One technique used by folks such as you is the “Its inevitable, so just give up now.\” argument. Sorry, the folks around here are much too smart for this.
My “Hardy har har” post was certainly unhelpful, but given
• your repeated statements that only the developers and powerful few would have any decision making power
• the village council’s rapid action thwarting SWL plans and thus retaining the public power to make decision for the good of the community
it was just too good to pass up.
We can continue to joust in unhelpful ways. I'm OK with that. It helps me sharpen my thinking so that I can be better prepared when discussing these issues with someone who is open to new ideas. Or... you can try to find ways to use the talent of the "nosey do-gooders."
Perspective
This is Granville. Granville has the powerful many, not the powerful few as is the case in many communities. If a meeting of the powerful movers and shakers in Granville were called to order, we would have to reserve Swasey Chapel. The meeting of the nosey do-gooders could be held at Victorias. In Granville, the powerful many will continue to make the decisions effectively.
One man's powerful mover and
One man's powerful mover and shaker is another man's nosey do-gooder...or worse, I'm afraid.
singlepie